Rob Zombie's The Lords Of Salem

[Outpost #31]

Originally Posted by Heretic

It's happened. Do you forget the japanese remake era? The Eye, The Ring, that movie where the kid meows like a cat, etc. Too many to count really.

Yeah that period of time was frustrating to see all those foreign movies remade. Especially The Eye. The original is really great but the remake fell flat hard. It took six years for them to remake Ringu and four years to remake The Eye. They only allowed 2 years in between LTROI and LMI. Didn't give many folks time to learn about the flick and check it out. It seemed like almost instant when LTROI came out that the remake was announced. I think this hurt people seeing LTROI as they said, "I might as well just wait for the remake because it's in English."

Originally Posted by Heretic

I just don't think LTROI has too much universal appeal. It's too subtle in it's approach, for it to really make a dent into the mainstream. The remake failing at the BO only cemented it's limited appeal in my mind. Whereas with The Thing, there is way more to instantly love about the film. Mainly the special effects, that still leave people's jaws on the floor, nearly three decades after it's inital release. Then you've got the star power of Kurt Russell, on top of one of the best stories ever told in the genre. It's a smart story, but not too smart, that the average moviegoer can't pick up on. It's that stuff that keeps The Thing going.

You have me thinking more about when the film came out and do recall it kind of being a "love or hate it" film. I love the shit out of the film. Enjoyed the cinematography, kid actors, atmosphere, sometimes oddness (Those cats had me howling), and lots of emotion. The American remake cut the balls off the original by leaving out certain parts of the original. I hope it's a movie people find and gains a nice fan following.

It still boggles my mind how The Thing tanked at the box office. Was it battling ET or another big film at the time that harmed it even more? I remember being a kid and seeing both The Thing and Cat People on the same night. Think I was the only person in the balcony and was very freaked out (was around 11 or 12 I think.....worked there for my parent's friends cleaning up afterward but got to watch the movies for free). I had to leave the balcony during Cat People during the arm ripping off scene. That really grossed me out back then.

Originally Posted by Heretic

Right off the bat, LTROI is handicapped by being a foreign film. That alone, will hamper any sort of breakthrough. Then you have the english language remake. I wouldn't be surprised if Let Me In, ends up being the "hidden gem" to check out years from now, with most North Americans not even realizing it was a remake.

Yeah as I started to think about things above it does have things going against it. I'll puke if LMI becomes the "hidden gem" though. For some reason I didn't enjoy it as much as LTROI. It scares me but people may start to think LMI is the orig like they think Johnny Cash did Hurt before NIN.

Originally Posted by Heretic

Terror Toons is already a classic.

Damn straight it is!!! You don't get much better than Terror Toons. Kicks the shit out of Troll 2. I actually rented this one from Netflix a bunch of years ago and yep it stunk and actually just re-rented it to have a copy for one of the most wacky/twisted/bad all around/train-wreck you can't turn away from quality. I bet Dobe Dobe, Hilti De-walt, Cannibal Rapist, and CJ all love this one.

[DudeClassicMan]

My only real complaint with Rejects is that the pre-production hype blurbs led me to believe I was going to see a movie where Sherriff Wydell had them cornered several times (across several state lines and the border even) but they managed to escape in exceedingly bloody ways leading to one final bloody showdown. While it still had a Western vibe you only really got those elements in grand fashion at the beginning and in the very end. I was expecting much more interaction between the Rejects and their pursuers whether it would’ve been Wydell, other Johnny Law or the bounty hunters; instead the movie went the route of putting them on a collision course after the opening shoot-out where we get to see how cruel the Rejects are and Wydell getting closer and closer to crossing the line. Of course, budget-wise all of that wasn’t even feasible. It’s just funny how epic you can build a movie up to be in your head according to all the pre-release hype.

I also don’t understand how all these strange warped Firefly-fanboy pussies apparently haven’t seen Death Wish or any other violent revenge fantasy exploitation classic (“The Exterminator”) that they felt sorry for these asshole Fireflies while Wydell was gleefully torturing them or during that whole Freebird montage thing which seemed to tug at a lot of fruitcakes’ heartstrings. Are you fucking kidding me? If you weren’t rooting for these assholes to get theirs every step of the way, you’re doing it wrong.

I never felt like the Fireflies were charming enough magnificent bastards to be remotely rootable or even more sympathetic than Wydell even if he did get a little too bloodthirsty for his own good. I mean that’s the real reason Wydell deserved to get his neck snapped; not because he was torturing these pieces of shit; but because it made sense after he got sloppy drunk and well, just plain sloppy for him to get his. In a way, it’s the stupid Bond villain thing being averted only this time it’s a stupid torturing vigilante underestimating his prey.

The real essence of the Fireflies is how Otis fares in the two very different brawls. He is just cocky and sloppy enough to let the urban cowboys get the upperhand on him, but vicious enough to regain the upperhand and kill them mostly because they’re in over their head and never expected to be in a fight to the death. Then when he’s faced down against a real mercenary he’s no match for the big bastard and gets the everloving dogshit kicked out of him. It was as delicious as Stuntman Mike getting his. "GET UP, BITCH!" I liked how that all worked out.

Also Zombie deserves major props for transforming Otis into a cruel Manson-esque stone cold killer in Rejects since in House all he actually amounted to was a more redneck gibberish-spewing toned down take on Chop Top. I mean what the fuck else has Moseley ever did close to this where he was credible as a vicious psychopathic killer? Again, I’m not talking about the one-note Chop Top stand-in he played in House.

Whatever schlock Moseley is stuck doing is his pay grade. And that’s in addition to Zombie’s overly gimmicky casting of cult favorites X, Y and Z often falling woefully flat as well. But Moseley was excellent in Rejects; as was Haig in both movies.

Rejects: definitely a cult classic even if I wish it would’ve been more involved with the Rejects narrowly avoiding capture several times.

[Heretic]

Originally Posted by DudeClassicMan

My only real complaint with Rejects is that the pre-production hype blurbs led me to believe I was going to see a movie where Sherriff Wydell had them cornered several times (across several state lines and the border even) but they managed to escape in exceedingly bloody ways leading to one final bloody showdown. While it still had a Western vibe you only really got those elements in grand fashion at the beginning and in the very end. I was expecting much more interaction between the Rejects and their pursuers whether it would’ve been Wydell, other Johnny Law or the bounty hunters; instead the movie went the route of putting them on a collision course after the opening shoot-out where we get to see how cruel the Rejects are and Wydell getting closer and closer to crossing the line. Of course, budget-wise all of that wasn’t even feasible. It’s just funny how epic you can build a movie up to be in your head according to all the pre-release hype.

I also don’t understand how all these strange warped Firefly-fanboy pussies apparently haven’t seen Death Wish or any other violent revenge fantasy exploitation classic (“The Exterminator”) that they felt sorry for these asshole Fireflies while Wydell was gleefully torturing them or during that whole Freebird montage thing which seemed to tug at a lot of fruitcakes’ heartstrings. Are you fucking kidding me? If you weren’t rooting for these assholes to get theirs every step of the way, you’re doing it wrong.

I never felt like the Fireflies were charming enough magnificent bastards to be remotely rootable or even more sympathetic than Wydell even if he did get a little too bloodthirsty for his own good. I mean that’s the real reason Wydell deserved to get his neck snapped; not because he was torturing these pieces of shit; but because it made sense after he got sloppy drunk and well, just plain sloppy for him to get his. In a way, it’s the stupid Bond villain thing being averted only this time it’s a stupid torturing vigilante underestimating his prey.

The real essence of the Fireflies is how Otis fares in the two very different brawls. He is just cocky and sloppy enough to let the urban cowboys get the upperhand on him, but vicious enough to regain the upperhand and kill them mostly because they’re in over their head and never expected to be in a fight to the death. Then when he’s faced down against a real mercenary he’s no match for the big bastard and gets the everloving dogshit kicked out of him. It was as delicious as Stuntman Mike getting his. "GET UP, BITCH!" I liked how that all worked out.

Also Zombie deserves major props for transforming Otis into a cruel Manson-esque stone cold killer in Rejects since in House all he actually amounted to was a more redneck gibberish-spewing toned down take on Chop Top. I mean what the fuck else has Moseley ever did close to this where he was credible as a vicious psychopathic killer? Again, I’m not talking about the one-note Chop Top stand-in he played in House.

Whatever schlock Moseley is stuck doing is his pay grade. And that’s in addition to Zombie’s overly gimmicky casting of cult favorites X, Y and Z often falling woefully flat as well. But Moseley was excellent in Rejects; as was Haig in both movies.

Rejects: definitely a cult classic even if I wish it would’ve been more involved with the Rejects narrowly avoiding capture several times.

I agree with everything, except for the "not rooting for the Firefly's" thing. That, in a way, is what makes the movie unique. I can't remember another film where a group of such nasty, should be unlikable, pieces of shit serial killers, are not only glorified, but celebrated. It's a pretty risky, and messed up route to take, and I can't think of another movie that really took that angle, and pushed it as far as TDR did.

For comparison, nobody really felt sorry for Tony Montana at the end of Scarface, because that wasn't the point. In TDR, that is kind of the point, which is really fucked up.

[DudeClassicMan]

As for Lords, unique visuals and style can go a long way. I recently saw Livide which delivered both even if it took a whole hour to really get going and what it delivered was more of a gory fairy tale than straight up horror. Don't get me wrong; you got some gory, grisly kills but they weren't the centerpiece.

Whatever visuals we get out of this, will it provide enough substance to overcome being a self-indulgent shitpiece depicting the descent into madness of Rob's annoying half?

[mR_BuNgLe]

Originally Posted by DudeClassicMan

Whatever visuals we get out of this, will it provide enough substance to overcome being a self-indulgent shitpiece depicting the descent into madness of Rob's annoying half?

I wouldn't necessarily call it a shit-piece, but it's self-indulgent with very little substance. It's cool to look at though, if that's enough?

[DudeClassicMan]

Originally Posted by Heretic

I agree with everything, except for the "not rooting for the Firefly's" thing. That, in a way, is what makes the movie unique. I can't remember another film where a group of such nasty, should be unlikable, pieces of shit serial killers, are not only glorified, but celebrated. It's a pretty risky, and messed up route to take, and I can't think of another movie that really took that angle, and pushed it as far as TDR did.

For comparison, nobody really felt sorry for Tony Montana at the end of Scarface, because that wasn't the point. In TDR, that is kind of the point, which is really fucked up.

Robocop; at least to the extent that Clarence Boddicker and crew were having so much fun who wouldn’t want to be them pulling their capers and colorfully killing cops? (No matter how many times I see it I still get a chuckle out of Clarence and Leon celebrating and pumping their fists like Leon hit the winning motherfucking 3-pointer at the buzzer after he dumps the debris on Robocop.) Of course, even though they were every bit as sadistic as the Fireflies they were more about crime for profit than being bloodthirsty killers for the sheer pleasure of it. And the way they dispatched of Murphy was so cruel and taunting that you were definitely rooting for Robocop at the end in a way you weren’t for batshit redneck Sherriff Wydell. So different kinds of movies? Yes. I still don’t think the Fireflies ever reached that transcendent iconic level of charismatic killers that Clarence and crew managed though.

I get your point, though. Of course, Tony Montana is ultimately shown to be a sick deranged nut that irrationally guns down his 2nd in command and best friend out of some bizarre jealous rage that the guy is plugging his little sister. If you’re not given that revelation of what a psychotic loose cannon piece of shit Tony really is, I think everybody would be fine with rooting for him to make it out alive. I mean he had demonstrated there was a line even he wouldn’t cross when he refused to let Sosa’s guy detonate the car bomb. But that’s nullified when he guns down Manny.

Does Rejects go quite as far as Natural Born Killers did to make the titular sadistic mass murderers into charismatic protagonists? It seemed to be made pretty clear that going after the Rejects was what pushed Wydell over the limit whereas Scagnetti: Supercop was shown to be even more fucked up than Mickey and Mallory. But then I guess you have to factor in NBK being blatant satire while Rejects never really winks at the audience. In fact, it’s a pretty stark contrast the tedious downright annoying way Walton Goggins got his brains splattered in slow motion in House compared to the quick and dirty unflinching way Posehn lost his head.

Yeah, Zombie definitely framed things to root for the Rejects as modern day outlaws. I just didn’t see anything to suggest Wydell was a corrupt dirty piece of shit before the Rejects drove him to it making the whole thing a gray area where you were picking for which outlaws to root for by the end. If it was left a bit murkier to suggest that Wydell was always a corrupt sadistic cop even before dealing with the Rejects that would’ve been even more over the top in painting the Fireflies as the anti-heroes; probably a little too heavy-handed.

It is pretty masterful that once they’ve endured the torture they’re elevated to full blown anti-heroes getting to go out in a blaze of glory. But I personally thought they were annoying enough cocksuckers (mainly in the first movie) that it’s easy to relish in them getting theirs.

You’re right in that they are supposed to be painted as outlaws as much as irredeemable spree killers. I just think there are other killers that did it with much more gusto than them and that there was more than enough reason to want to see Wydell fuck them up to still make it very weird and odd that you’re actually left rooting for these outlaws by the end. It’s the right ending but I could just as easily see enjoying Wydell torture them than rooting for the Rejects to squirm out of the ordeal.

Now I’m racking my brain trying to figure out other alternatives to career kind of one-note heavy duty shitkicker Forsythe that would’ve made Wydell easier/more interesting to root for and the climax even grayer. I mean Vic Mackey pulled shit this bad all the time when doling out the vigilante justice to his enemies. Also if you think about it Wydell’s downfall is almost like Chance in “To Live and Die in L.A.” gloating over his revenge a little too much ultimately fucking up said revenge.

While losing some of its uniqueness, Rejects could’ve been even better with a broader portrayal of Wydell as charismatic/deranged of an outlaw as the Rejects. This kind of modern day revenge western is something Zombie should probably try his hand at again; only this time with more than one interesting set of characters.

[DudeClassicMan]

Originally Posted by mR_BuNgLe

I wouldn't necessarily call it a shit-piece, but it's self-indulgent with very little substance. It's cool to look at though, if that's enough?

Heh. Beyond the Black Rainbow sounded so mind-numbingly boring that when I punched it up on Netfilx I just fast forwarded all the way to the final twelve minutes to see what the actual pay-off was.

I've heard nothing that makes Lords sound that cringe-worthy and uneventful; still doesn't sound like anything worth watching more than once though.

[klownz666]

I hope it gets a theatrical release in the UK!

[Frey]

Originally Posted by DudeClassicMan

Robocop; at least to the extent that Clarence Boddicker and crew were having so much fun who wouldn’t want to be them pulling their capers and colorfully killing cops? (No matter how many times I see it I still get a chuckle out of Clarence and Leon celebrating and pumping their fists like Leon hit the winning motherfucking 3-pointer at the buzzer after he dumps the debris on Robocop.) Of course, even though they were every bit as sadistic as the Fireflies they were more about crime for profit than being bloodthirsty killers for the sheer pleasure of it. And the way they dispatched of Murphy was so cruel and taunting that you were definitely rooting for Robocop at the end in a way you weren’t for batshit redneck Sherriff Wydell. So different kinds of movies? Yes. I still don’t think the Fireflies ever reached that transcendent iconic level of charismatic killers that Clarence and crew managed though.

I get your point, though. Of course, Tony Montana is ultimately shown to be a sick deranged nut that irrationally guns down his 2nd in command and best friend out of some bizarre jealous rage that the guy is plugging his little sister. If you’re not given that revelation of what a psychotic loose cannon piece of shit Tony really is, I think everybody would be fine with rooting for him to make it out alive. I mean he had demonstrated there was a line even he wouldn’t cross when he refused to let Sosa’s guy detonate the car bomb. But that’s nullified when he guns down Manny.

Does Rejects go quite as far as Natural Born Killers did to make the titular sadistic mass murderers into charismatic protagonists? It seemed to be made pretty clear that going after the Rejects was what pushed Wydell over the limit whereas Scagnetti: Supercop was shown to be even more fucked up than Mickey and Mallory. But then I guess you have to factor in NBK being blatant satire while Rejects never really winks at the audience. In fact, it’s a pretty stark contrast the tedious downright annoying way Walton Goggins got his brains splattered in slow motion in House compared to the quick and dirty unflinching way Posehn lost his head.

Yeah, Zombie definitely framed things to root for the Rejects as modern day outlaws. I just didn’t see anything to suggest Wydell was a corrupt dirty piece of shit before the Rejects drove him to it making the whole thing a gray area where you were picking for which outlaws to root for by the end. If it was left a bit murkier to suggest that Wydell was always a corrupt sadistic cop even before dealing with the Rejects that would’ve been even more over the top in painting the Fireflies as the anti-heroes; probably a little too heavy-handed.

It is pretty masterful that once they’ve endured the torture they’re elevated to full blown anti-heroes getting to go out in a blaze of glory. But I personally thought they were annoying enough cocksuckers (mainly in the first movie) that it’s easy to relish in them getting theirs.

You’re right in that they are supposed to be painted as outlaws as much as irredeemable spree killers. I just think there are other killers that did it with much more gusto than them and that there was more than enough reason to want to see Wydell fuck them up to still make it very weird and odd that you’re actually left rooting for these outlaws by the end. It’s the right ending but I could just as easily see enjoying Wydell torture them than rooting for the Rejects to squirm out of the ordeal.

Now I’m racking my brain trying to figure out other alternatives to career kind of one-note heavy duty shitkicker Forsythe that would’ve made Wydell easier/more interesting to root for and the climax even grayer. I mean Vic Mackey pulled shit this bad all the time when doling out the vigilante justice to his enemies. Also if you think about it Wydell’s downfall is almost like Chance in “To Live and Die in L.A.” gloating over his revenge a little too much ultimately fucking up said revenge.

While losing some of its uniqueness, Rejects could’ve been even better with a broader portrayal of Wydell as charismatic/deranged of an outlaw as the Rejects. This kind of modern day revenge western is something Zombie should probably try his hand at again; only this time with more than one interesting set of characters.

This post made me think of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in terms of likeable anti-heroes. Both Newman and Redford nailed the shit out of that movie. As for Sheriff John Quincy Wydell goes, I hated him from the beginning. I found everything about him ceesey and for a lack of a better word, fake. I was a big fan of House of 1,000 Corpses and saw TDR on opening day at Universal Studios Orlando of all places. I was rooting for the Rejects the entire time and as annoyed as I get at Free Bid I found it to be the perfect song for the ending and I must admit as the credits came up I squirted a tear or two. The theater was about 1/4 full and was made up of 20 somethings and most ofthem gave a standing applause. Even the scene where Wydell meets his demise got cheers from the audience.

[DudeClassicMan]

Originally Posted by Frey

This post made me think of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in terms of likeable anti-heroes. Both Newman and Redford nailed the shit out of that movie. As for Sheriff John Quincy Wydell goes, I hated him from the beginning. I found everything about him cheesey and for a lack of a better word, fake. I was a big fan of House of 1,000 Corpses and saw TDR on opening day at Universal Studios Orlando of all places. I was rooting for the Rejects the entire time and as annoyed as I get at Free Bid I found it to be the perfect song for the ending and I must admit as the credits came up I squirted a tear or two. The theater was about 1/4 full and was made up of 20 somethings and most ofthem gave a standing applause. Even the scene where Wydell meets his demise got cheers from the audience.

Yeah. Forsythe doesn't really possess the slightest bit of gravitas does he?
He'll kind of always be that fat greaseball villain in that one Seagal movie.
I almost wonder if that stupid awkward scene where he was getting himself psyched up in front of the mirror was supposed to cram this idea down the audience's throat. Who the fuck even does that? All that was missing was a weight bench and the bar loaded up with 45's.

Something else not really related to Rejects but in the vein of vigilantes/anti-heroes is I started thinking about it and can't really think of a modern equivalent of Charles Bronson. Or I mean all of the action stars are 100 million dollar blockbuster action stars or faux karate guys and not really grizzled old tough guys. I mean Stallone is an old droopy eyed motherfucker by now but he's just the old droopy eyed aged version of Stallone; more goofy than anything. I'm probably blanking on somebody obvious. I guess Willis never really met the criteria of a bodybuilder/karate douchebag so there's him at least. Michael Madsen desperately wishes he was that weathered tough guy but he's been bloated as fuck doing straight to DVD shit for 15 years now unless QT throws him a bone.

Maybe if John Q. Wydell was a differently written character who they made it clear was always as slimy and underhanded as the Rejects they could've cast somebody like Powers Boothe even though Boothe isn't really physically imposing like the burly Forsythe. Which really doesn't matter since he ended up hiring the Unholy Two anyways to do most of the dirty work.

Michael Rooker or Stephen Lang would've been a kick to see too going up against the Rejects. Then again since a big part of casting Forsythe was that he was a big burly fuck like Towles maybe Clancy Brown. Or fuck me running.....Ron Perlman but he was probably busy doing something else. Shit, come to think of it M.C. Gainey was originally cast in this but dropped out for one reason or another. He definitely would've made a better John Q. Wydell AND a better match as Towles brother.

Still I thought the Rejects were the right mix of evil and douchey without being as charismatic as Mickey and Mallory that I enjoyed seeing them experience their own brand of suffering. As for Baby, that bitch never wasn't annoying. And for a movie that was pretty credible in all the other physical confrontations and violence, I thought it was a bit silly that she was expert enough to just throw the knife across the room like that. But fuck it, that's nitpicking; it's just a movie.